vinabath
03-26 11:26 AM
see above
If China and India combined gets only 22K every year then all Visas will be wasted.
If China and India combined gets only 22K every year then all Visas will be wasted.
wallpaper Plataforma: PS2 Região: PAL
gjoe
10-08 03:46 PM
A rich man had a bunch of horses and donkeys. He used some to carry the load and some he tried to breed for participating in races. He was trying something but not very effeciently.
When we have a mix of people like in this forum, you will see different people, different thoughts, ideas and talent. A leader with patience can put to use more than 90% of the resources (members), if he knows what he/she is doing. No matter how many times you ask some will never go to rallies, some will never participate in state chapters, some will never contribute money, etc. Trying to get everybody to do the same thing is never going to work. Please don't mistake me or take offence. All that I am saying is "Horse should be for races and donkeys should be for carrying the load" In no way the donkey is inferior to the horse or vice versa.
BTW I work for the goverment and I know a little bit more than what you know about it. I am not saying this to belittle you but just mentioning my opinion
Firstly, no one can shut down thoughts. They are inside your head. What I am saying is that match your thoughts with your actions, not just expression of thoughts. If you want to express your ideas and thoughts, do it in a way that its heard by people that matter. Your ideas and thoughts heard by other people like you is meaningless. If you can match ACTIONS to propogate your thoughts, by hauling your ass to Washington DC, spending some $$ out of pocket on travel to DC and meeting with a few of the 535 offices, then it matters. Otherwise your idea is not worth 2 cents sitting on forums read by people who are not legislators.
Secondly, YOU THINK that asking USCIS to follow the rules is easier than changing rules (thru legislation). That's because , you and many others like you, think of Government function as if its an IT project. Occupational hazard. That is not how the Government works. The reason they dont follow the rules is because they (1) dont care and (2) are not accountable. USCIS and its non-FIFO procedures, FBI namecheck delays, backlogs in receipting and adjudication of 140 (Atlanta PERM) etc is something that congress cannot fix. USCIS, FBI report to DHS and DOJ respectively and they in turn, report to the White House. Congress can rarely make them work better and make them answer for mistakes, as congress can only do "Oversight" hearings on them. Haul an agency or department head in front of a committee and ask questions (pre submitted). And ask them questions. Make some show on CSPAN. At the end of the day, if Administration tell congress - "GET LOST, mind your own business, this is the best we can do and we are doing it", then congress cannot do anything. Other than impeaching someone. No one is going to impeach Mike Chertoff because one of his agencies (USCIS) is not doing FIFO on something called 485 (which no one in DC knows what it is).
Congressional input rarely works. Example: Intervention of Congress during July bulletin. You know why? Because Congress HAD TO DO IT because of the uproar. I dont see any uproar and your issues like "there is no FIFO", "My PERM is stuck in Atlant for 6 months", or "I am stuck in namecheck for 4 years".
These things need lobbying the Administration. Lobbying the administration is MUCH MORE DIFFICULT and EXPENSIVE than lobbying congress. Why? Because each office of Congress has a boss that faces elections very often. Every 2 years in House and every 6 years in the Senate. Plus they have 535 offices (435 in House, 100 in senate). That means easier access. On the other hand, there is only one office heading USCIS, office of Emelio Gonzalez, and only one Michael Chertoff and only one DOJ and its FBI. So the access of more difficult and lobbying is more expensive.
When it comes to administration, you have limited leverage. Other than 2 people in the entire administration, no one is getting job by elections. The only 2 positions in this branch of Government that are elected and directly accountable to people are President and Vice President. Mike Chertoff of DHS or Emelio Gonzalez of USCIS wont lose next election coz those are on appointed positions not elected positions. Which also means that they dont have to worry about making people angry.
So you see, ASKING for good things like FIFO and Faster namecheck is great in theory. But please understand, from a civic lession viewpoint, the 3 branches of government viewpoint and then make suggestions.
Is Immigration Voice an organization that can raise 100,000 a month each month? NO. Not right now. Right now, people are busy checking their mailboxes for EAD cards. Out of 23,000 registered members, if each contribute $5 a month (equivalent to a burger, fries and coke), it is 100,000 a month. But it wont happen.
So until that happens, feel free to express your thoughts and opinions and brilliant ideas and happy forum discussion. If that's what makes you all happy and content.
When we have a mix of people like in this forum, you will see different people, different thoughts, ideas and talent. A leader with patience can put to use more than 90% of the resources (members), if he knows what he/she is doing. No matter how many times you ask some will never go to rallies, some will never participate in state chapters, some will never contribute money, etc. Trying to get everybody to do the same thing is never going to work. Please don't mistake me or take offence. All that I am saying is "Horse should be for races and donkeys should be for carrying the load" In no way the donkey is inferior to the horse or vice versa.
BTW I work for the goverment and I know a little bit more than what you know about it. I am not saying this to belittle you but just mentioning my opinion
Firstly, no one can shut down thoughts. They are inside your head. What I am saying is that match your thoughts with your actions, not just expression of thoughts. If you want to express your ideas and thoughts, do it in a way that its heard by people that matter. Your ideas and thoughts heard by other people like you is meaningless. If you can match ACTIONS to propogate your thoughts, by hauling your ass to Washington DC, spending some $$ out of pocket on travel to DC and meeting with a few of the 535 offices, then it matters. Otherwise your idea is not worth 2 cents sitting on forums read by people who are not legislators.
Secondly, YOU THINK that asking USCIS to follow the rules is easier than changing rules (thru legislation). That's because , you and many others like you, think of Government function as if its an IT project. Occupational hazard. That is not how the Government works. The reason they dont follow the rules is because they (1) dont care and (2) are not accountable. USCIS and its non-FIFO procedures, FBI namecheck delays, backlogs in receipting and adjudication of 140 (Atlanta PERM) etc is something that congress cannot fix. USCIS, FBI report to DHS and DOJ respectively and they in turn, report to the White House. Congress can rarely make them work better and make them answer for mistakes, as congress can only do "Oversight" hearings on them. Haul an agency or department head in front of a committee and ask questions (pre submitted). And ask them questions. Make some show on CSPAN. At the end of the day, if Administration tell congress - "GET LOST, mind your own business, this is the best we can do and we are doing it", then congress cannot do anything. Other than impeaching someone. No one is going to impeach Mike Chertoff because one of his agencies (USCIS) is not doing FIFO on something called 485 (which no one in DC knows what it is).
Congressional input rarely works. Example: Intervention of Congress during July bulletin. You know why? Because Congress HAD TO DO IT because of the uproar. I dont see any uproar and your issues like "there is no FIFO", "My PERM is stuck in Atlant for 6 months", or "I am stuck in namecheck for 4 years".
These things need lobbying the Administration. Lobbying the administration is MUCH MORE DIFFICULT and EXPENSIVE than lobbying congress. Why? Because each office of Congress has a boss that faces elections very often. Every 2 years in House and every 6 years in the Senate. Plus they have 535 offices (435 in House, 100 in senate). That means easier access. On the other hand, there is only one office heading USCIS, office of Emelio Gonzalez, and only one Michael Chertoff and only one DOJ and its FBI. So the access of more difficult and lobbying is more expensive.
When it comes to administration, you have limited leverage. Other than 2 people in the entire administration, no one is getting job by elections. The only 2 positions in this branch of Government that are elected and directly accountable to people are President and Vice President. Mike Chertoff of DHS or Emelio Gonzalez of USCIS wont lose next election coz those are on appointed positions not elected positions. Which also means that they dont have to worry about making people angry.
So you see, ASKING for good things like FIFO and Faster namecheck is great in theory. But please understand, from a civic lession viewpoint, the 3 branches of government viewpoint and then make suggestions.
Is Immigration Voice an organization that can raise 100,000 a month each month? NO. Not right now. Right now, people are busy checking their mailboxes for EAD cards. Out of 23,000 registered members, if each contribute $5 a month (equivalent to a burger, fries and coke), it is 100,000 a month. But it wont happen.
So until that happens, feel free to express your thoughts and opinions and brilliant ideas and happy forum discussion. If that's what makes you all happy and content.
PDOCT05
08-27 01:21 PM
Send AOS,EAD apps on 2nd to NSC.
Signed by R.Williams on 3rd at 9:03 Am..no updateds yet.
Signed by R.Williams on 3rd at 9:03 Am..no updateds yet.
2011 Star Wars: Battlefront II. PS2
RajForGC
06-07 11:05 AM
My frined got receipt from TSC yesterday, his attorney sent package them on 31st , I think they got it on June 1st. He has not got finger printing notice yet.
I applied on May 18th 140/485 Nebraska, Got receipt on May 28 from TSC with finger printing schedule after 2 weeks. 140 got approved on 23rd May.
Friends, My friends is saying if the New bill approves then we might have to re-apply again, even wealready have applied 485, is this True? I am bit confuse, I aksed to my Lawyer he said your Labor and 140 is New , he cannot tell anything at this point. If the person is already applied and waiting for Card should be effected, any opinion?
Thanks
I applied on May 18th 140/485 Nebraska, Got receipt on May 28 from TSC with finger printing schedule after 2 weeks. 140 got approved on 23rd May.
Friends, My friends is saying if the New bill approves then we might have to re-apply again, even wealready have applied 485, is this True? I am bit confuse, I aksed to my Lawyer he said your Labor and 140 is New , he cannot tell anything at this point. If the person is already applied and waiting for Card should be effected, any opinion?
Thanks
more...
prince_waiting
07-20 07:32 AM
I pledge 200 USD; a small salutation to a great act.
dtekkedil
07-03 07:18 AM
It is good to know that there are a few willing to do something about this!
But we need more people!
Even about 50 people is a good start! Come on people... spare a few minutes and take part in this protest!
Don't go on with your lives as if nothing happened and don't think that nothing will happen!
Most of us come from the land of Gandhiji... most of us have forgotten what that one little man achieved! But the fact is he couldn't have achieved everything that he did if the people of India didn't believe!
So start to believe people! You can make a difference!
But we need more people!
Even about 50 people is a good start! Come on people... spare a few minutes and take part in this protest!
Don't go on with your lives as if nothing happened and don't think that nothing will happen!
Most of us come from the land of Gandhiji... most of us have forgotten what that one little man achieved! But the fact is he couldn't have achieved everything that he did if the people of India didn't believe!
So start to believe people! You can make a difference!
more...
ash0210
03-09 11:32 AM
I am from retrogressed country, I am here for last 12 years & did not got depressed as I do not have GC. In my early years in USA, I used to get depress as I was not having GC but then I started thinking...Is GC is the ONLY important thing in my life?
I started concentrating on my work, constrained my self on checking now& then PDs, LUD's. If feellt depresssed - listening Indian classical music and involving in local commuitiy activities/helping kids in their studies..
Life is beautiful, GC is just part of my life and GC do not drives my life..
Well, I am TOO depressed about the BEC performance. I know too many people are in same situation but I find myself "helpless" and at least i want to SCREAM......:mad:
I started concentrating on my work, constrained my self on checking now& then PDs, LUD's. If feellt depresssed - listening Indian classical music and involving in local commuitiy activities/helping kids in their studies..
Life is beautiful, GC is just part of my life and GC do not drives my life..
Well, I am TOO depressed about the BEC performance. I know too many people are in same situation but I find myself "helpless" and at least i want to SCREAM......:mad:
2010 Star Wars: Battlefront II (US,
Prashant
07-10 10:00 AM
A very good reply.
Thank you.
Thank you.
more...
tabletpc
09-15 05:11 PM
In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress. - James Adams...
Get back guys. Don't waste your time on GC discussion. D what you love most, things will eventually fall in place.
Get back guys. Don't waste your time on GC discussion. D what you love most, things will eventually fall in place.
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salai007
08-13 11:45 AM
My lawyer went to the SC and dropped the papers on July 2, still I am waiting for my receipt#....does anybody in my situation like this?
Regards,
-Salai
Regards,
-Salai
more...
dtekkedil
07-11 11:41 AM
Viceroy Lord Wavell and his assistants laughed when M.K. Gandhi told them that one day they will be forced to leave India. What they did not understood that they were not politicians, they were bureaucrats. When the political power behind peaceful civil disobedience was unleashed, a nation took shape, and what Gandhi told Wavell became a reality.
Something similar repeated in United States recently when thousands of legal immigrants were given a cold shoulder, despite of their merit based claim for an American Green Card. They decided to apply Gandhian way of peaceful protest by sending thousands of flower bouquets to USCIS, an American agency responsible for immigration and citizenship. Instead of offering an apology, USCIS chief decided to again ignore the immigrants and simply issued a statement that the flowers will be forwarded to the injured service members recuperating at Walter Reed Army Medical Center. Once again a bureaucrat miscalculated the power hidden behind a peaceful protest. Now the power behind flowers is becoming a media mainstream story. NY Times, Washington Post, Reuters, Yahoo News are a few to name. Bollywood, has recently issued a statement providing its full support to Immigration Voice, the non profit organization behind the flower campaign.
An American way of fighting injustice "A law suit" is on its way, the usual rallies and demonstrations are about to begin. However, in America, its first time after Martin Luther King Jr., that someone has tried to apply Gandhi's way to fight injustice. It is yet not clear that what would be the outcome of this campaign, but there are rumours that USCIS is already discussing internally to reverse the discriminatory decision which resulted in this flower campaign causing enough embarrassement to them.
Its amazing to witness that 60 years after Gandhi's demise, his ideology is still relevant. We are sure its gonna remain relevant till there are Lord Wavell's in this world. Wavell's can momentarily laugh thinking that unorganized immigrants are helpless, but when the peaceful protest will demonstrate its political power, they surely will realize what Gandhi and Gandhian ways are all about.
Are you a journalist by any chance? :D
Something similar repeated in United States recently when thousands of legal immigrants were given a cold shoulder, despite of their merit based claim for an American Green Card. They decided to apply Gandhian way of peaceful protest by sending thousands of flower bouquets to USCIS, an American agency responsible for immigration and citizenship. Instead of offering an apology, USCIS chief decided to again ignore the immigrants and simply issued a statement that the flowers will be forwarded to the injured service members recuperating at Walter Reed Army Medical Center. Once again a bureaucrat miscalculated the power hidden behind a peaceful protest. Now the power behind flowers is becoming a media mainstream story. NY Times, Washington Post, Reuters, Yahoo News are a few to name. Bollywood, has recently issued a statement providing its full support to Immigration Voice, the non profit organization behind the flower campaign.
An American way of fighting injustice "A law suit" is on its way, the usual rallies and demonstrations are about to begin. However, in America, its first time after Martin Luther King Jr., that someone has tried to apply Gandhi's way to fight injustice. It is yet not clear that what would be the outcome of this campaign, but there are rumours that USCIS is already discussing internally to reverse the discriminatory decision which resulted in this flower campaign causing enough embarrassement to them.
Its amazing to witness that 60 years after Gandhi's demise, his ideology is still relevant. We are sure its gonna remain relevant till there are Lord Wavell's in this world. Wavell's can momentarily laugh thinking that unorganized immigrants are helpless, but when the peaceful protest will demonstrate its political power, they surely will realize what Gandhi and Gandhian ways are all about.
Are you a journalist by any chance? :D
hot Star Wars Battlefront II,
aquarianf
12-17 10:08 AM
Been in the US since 1998, have an EB-2 PD of 2001, have played by the rules all along. Still no GC... And, the dates are going back to 2000 from the new year.. I've lost hopes...
I'm pretty close to getting clinical depression because of this game played by USCIS, Labor Dept, FBI and my own bad luck.
SKILL bill, OMNIBUS, etc. comes and goes. IV does seem to be doing things to lobby for the community, but let's face one reality. Like a news article said, no one in congress or senate wants to touch immigration even with a long pole until 2009.
The US has been very good to me (other than the GC part), more than my home country (India) which is why I'm still here.
Have invested too much of time in this country to just pack up and go. Just curious if any of you feel this way? How do you handle such depressing feelings?
We also came here in early 99. One of our friend came 98 and renewed ead 3 times. One of my husband's colleague is here since 95. My husband's coworker s from his first/second employers who came during same time are close to get citizenship. If my husband wouldn't have switched his jobs for his carrier advancements and salary then we also would have applied for citizenship by now. But we don't regret our decision at all. We feel sad sometimes but depressed by not getting GC by now, instead we spend that energy in advancement of our skills and carrier. We have many people among our friend circle who are waiting for GC for many years but we decided to enjoy our life as much as we can and not to bring any GC related depression in our life. If you have such friends among you then it becomes very easy to get out of this depression.
I'm pretty close to getting clinical depression because of this game played by USCIS, Labor Dept, FBI and my own bad luck.
SKILL bill, OMNIBUS, etc. comes and goes. IV does seem to be doing things to lobby for the community, but let's face one reality. Like a news article said, no one in congress or senate wants to touch immigration even with a long pole until 2009.
The US has been very good to me (other than the GC part), more than my home country (India) which is why I'm still here.
Have invested too much of time in this country to just pack up and go. Just curious if any of you feel this way? How do you handle such depressing feelings?
We also came here in early 99. One of our friend came 98 and renewed ead 3 times. One of my husband's colleague is here since 95. My husband's coworker s from his first/second employers who came during same time are close to get citizenship. If my husband wouldn't have switched his jobs for his carrier advancements and salary then we also would have applied for citizenship by now. But we don't regret our decision at all. We feel sad sometimes but depressed by not getting GC by now, instead we spend that energy in advancement of our skills and carrier. We have many people among our friend circle who are waiting for GC for many years but we decided to enjoy our life as much as we can and not to bring any GC related depression in our life. If you have such friends among you then it becomes very easy to get out of this depression.
more...
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bugmenot
12-11 11:30 PM
in one of the threads its said that all 90 senators had agreed to pass the SKIL as against one who did not (sen sessions) and since lame duck required unanimous voting it cud not, but when the demo's bring it up early next year, they would not need an unanimous vote on it but a majority vote? so statistically it sud get through? how far off am i on this?
tattoo Star Wars: Battlefront II PS2
h1techSlave
06-29 07:58 AM
The link in my earlier post is a job advertisement which clearly states that EAD folks need not apply. There are 1000s of folks out there who are eligible for that position, but for the EAD restriction.
As per I-9 form
Any person wrongly discriminated due to EAD expiration date has the option of seeking claims for damages caused by the other party in court of law. I am not aware of any case involving such facts.
___________________
Not a legal advice
As per I-9 form
Any person wrongly discriminated due to EAD expiration date has the option of seeking claims for damages caused by the other party in court of law. I am not aware of any case involving such facts.
___________________
Not a legal advice
more...
pictures Star Wars: Battlefront II (US,
psk79
09-12 02:48 PM
I am in exactly same boat, with no idea about my pending application.
Absolutely hate this feeling.
Don't worry! It will soon be up. Its just where your app is located in the stack of stuff.. I worried so much until a couple of days when the checks are cashed..however no receipts yet...its just crazy..some spouses got EADs while principal applicants status is still pending...
Absolutely hate this feeling.
Don't worry! It will soon be up. Its just where your app is located in the stack of stuff.. I worried so much until a couple of days when the checks are cashed..however no receipts yet...its just crazy..some spouses got EADs while principal applicants status is still pending...
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immi_twinges
07-11 01:17 PM
There are some very good quotes from
American x presidents , socialists and authors
These should be included because Americans are more aware of them and its a symbol that we respect the American leaders thoughts and aspirations.
I have posted them on the other thread.
American x presidents , socialists and authors
These should be included because Americans are more aware of them and its a symbol that we respect the American leaders thoughts and aspirations.
I have posted them on the other thread.
more...
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anzerraja
07-20 10:56 AM
Please note that the funds you have contributed to IV core funds are not part of this thread.
But thanks very much anyways since every penny counts.
Sam2006
I think you didn't notice my message.
Looks like you haven't filled in your pledge amount. Could you do please ?
Thanks
Anzer
But thanks very much anyways since every penny counts.
Sam2006
I think you didn't notice my message.
Looks like you haven't filled in your pledge amount. Could you do please ?
Thanks
Anzer
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spulugur
02-27 08:12 AM
$100 - Transaction ID: 1GV95902XD022880S
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rameshk75
08-26 08:54 AM
http://www.immigrationportal.com/showthread.php?t=282435
http://www.immigrationportal.com/showthread.php?t=284815
There were so many rejected L1 Individual petitions filed by TCS/Infy/Wipro etc.. These big companies will include all the internal tools in the resumes and INS asked for the purchase orders for all the specialised tools.
As there were no PO's for those tools, petitions were rejected in large numbers. This has started in the last year and continuing... i personally have lot of friends whose petitions were rejected and went back to India..
http://www.immigrationportal.com/showthread.php?t=284815
There were so many rejected L1 Individual petitions filed by TCS/Infy/Wipro etc.. These big companies will include all the internal tools in the resumes and INS asked for the purchase orders for all the specialised tools.
As there were no PO's for those tools, petitions were rejected in large numbers. This has started in the last year and continuing... i personally have lot of friends whose petitions were rejected and went back to India..
morchu
05-08 02:20 PM
Do you see anywhere in INA mentioning that "EB-dependents should NOT be filed in EB-category". How is it a "mis-interpretation" then?
Again like I mentioned before you can achive the same goal (which you care about) via a different approach.
...the official mis interpretation ...
Again like I mentioned before you can achive the same goal (which you care about) via a different approach.
...the official mis interpretation ...
senthil1
05-24 01:39 AM
Another reason was IV was relying on skil bill but when point system is used Skil bill does not fit into it. They threw it away. Also skil bill was asking exemptions for MS and STEM apart from increase in numbers(Congress never gave exemption from Cap except spouses of citizens). It might be better with just giving numbers so that only one provision was there. I think now IV is asking only numbers of green card and this campaign has better chance of success(atleast some increase in numbers). But if we focus multiple things(Involving in H1b issues and other smaller issues) at the same time then it may be tough to achieve.
Vijjus, this is coming from a veteran:
There is not such out of touch or education needed to be done. Congressmen are well aware of the plight of legal immigrants way before than immigrationvoice.org dreamed of existence. We fought hard in order to educate congressmen and often their staff played dumb, but again the truth is that they never cared about our plight.
The reality is that this, as usual, is primarily driven by business needs. Major employers such as Bill Gates lobby mainly for H1B numbers increase. Employers are very much aware that H1B staff under pressure can put up and deliver the very long journey of 60-80h/week expected at Microsoft. Yes, Microsoft and many other major employers could easily find qualified US students with two years of experience, skills by the way comparable to what the vast majorities of H1B's offer, but Americans who do not need the H1B would give a finger to any employer who would expect that an American would work 80h/week for 55K/year.
The illegal aliens are being backed by major employers of cheap labor, such as Wall Mart and many others. Illegals also can put extra long hours and therefore they yield more output for less investiment. That's is the reason that US employers seem to fight so consistently to keep them here.
I estimate that immigrationvoice.org efforts do not count for 0.5% of the final result of this bill. As a matter of fact, chances are more we fight and protest, more people will be outrageous and scared and will call *their* congressmen even harder in order to push us out.
For the naive and dreamers out there who are shaking their heads after reading the above and believe that employers cannot find qualified applicants, so just answer this:
How many million dollars per year are the top management of Fortune 500 companies making? The US is not about drastic wages inequalities. This is about paying a fair salary, otherwise we have increasing salary inequality and this should be renamed then to Mexico, India or something like that.
Thanks,
Tito Ortiz
,
Vijjus, this is coming from a veteran:
There is not such out of touch or education needed to be done. Congressmen are well aware of the plight of legal immigrants way before than immigrationvoice.org dreamed of existence. We fought hard in order to educate congressmen and often their staff played dumb, but again the truth is that they never cared about our plight.
The reality is that this, as usual, is primarily driven by business needs. Major employers such as Bill Gates lobby mainly for H1B numbers increase. Employers are very much aware that H1B staff under pressure can put up and deliver the very long journey of 60-80h/week expected at Microsoft. Yes, Microsoft and many other major employers could easily find qualified US students with two years of experience, skills by the way comparable to what the vast majorities of H1B's offer, but Americans who do not need the H1B would give a finger to any employer who would expect that an American would work 80h/week for 55K/year.
The illegal aliens are being backed by major employers of cheap labor, such as Wall Mart and many others. Illegals also can put extra long hours and therefore they yield more output for less investiment. That's is the reason that US employers seem to fight so consistently to keep them here.
I estimate that immigrationvoice.org efforts do not count for 0.5% of the final result of this bill. As a matter of fact, chances are more we fight and protest, more people will be outrageous and scared and will call *their* congressmen even harder in order to push us out.
For the naive and dreamers out there who are shaking their heads after reading the above and believe that employers cannot find qualified applicants, so just answer this:
How many million dollars per year are the top management of Fortune 500 companies making? The US is not about drastic wages inequalities. This is about paying a fair salary, otherwise we have increasing salary inequality and this should be renamed then to Mexico, India or something like that.
Thanks,
Tito Ortiz
,
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